Feed aggregator

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 1:25pm
Anecdotal I know but proof for most people.

And that's the rub.

We *know* that anecdotal evidence is not, in general, borne out by controlled studies. That's why it's illegal to market a medicine without not just performing a controlled study, but having it approved by an independent regulator.

Anecdotes provide data to form a hypothesis; a properly controlled study tests the hypothesis.

Your hypothesis seems to be that cycle helmets offer significant protection to cyclists. Unfortunately, it's not a hypothesis supported by evidence, where there is much contradictory data from studies on cycle helmets. That in itself suggests any protection offered is small: if the effect were large, it should be obvious from studies.

Dismissing the value of a helmet in any individual accident would be foolish. Asserting that anecdotal data should be relied upon in coming to a judgement on the overall effectiveness of helmets would be equally foolish.

It's a mystery to me why cycle helmets are picked out as being suitable to subject to decision by anecdote, whereas no other similar innovations are. Perhaps you could let us know why you believe this to be appropriate?

Re: New Route Planner

Hm - just googled that (my own Garmin is an ancient eTrex so no help!). It looks like the Edge only announces the notifications at the actual turn itself, rather than "looking ahead"; so to get advance notification, I'd have to shift the notification in the .tcx file to 30m or so earlier.

Any Garmin experts able to confirm this? It looks like RideWithGPS offers this as a premium option ("Notify Before Turn"), and I'm not averse to adding stuff to cycle.travel for free which is paid-for on other sites.

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 1:07pm
At last a voice of reason esp the last para. You only hear of the bad accidents and not of the 'good' ones where helmets were worn. People just pick themselves up and carry on.

It isnt reason.
You dont hear of the crashes where people didnt have a helmet on and just pick themselves up and carry on. Holland shows us that the helmets saving lives like this just isnt happening in real life.
The same reasoning can apply to a crucifix equally as well as to a cycle helmet. The difference is that more people believe in helmets than in crucifixes.
I cannot see why anti cycle helmet people state that helmets on motorbikes are necessary because motorcycle accidents are more dangerous. Assuming that you don't get hit by your own bike why are they any different at say, 30mph to a cycle accident?

There are no anti-cycle helmet people on this thread yet.
A motorcycle that can only do 30mph is a moped. Most motorcycles are doing quite a bit more than 30mph the motorcycle helmets and helmet laws certainly had speeds greater than 30mph in mind.
Not many cyclists get up to 30mph and very few sustain that speed.

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 1:00pm
The box reads:
"You have made a sound decision to purchase your Davies, Craig Motoring Helmet. Wear it and don’t feel self-conscious. Driving even for the most proficient is dangerous.

Ultimately, motoring helmets will be commonplace, but in the meantime, you will be a leader whilst those who may consider your good sense misplaced, will follow."


http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/05/motoring-helmets-for-real-high-risk.html

Can't see it on the Davies,Craig website now. Seems it didn't catch on.

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 12:55pm
sapperadam wrote:I don't wish to preach too much about helmets here but something occurred to me reading this just now.

I work in an industry which is considered extremely dangerous and in fact I work on a site which includes nuclear installations so safety is, as you can imagine, absolutely paramount.

In terms of wearing a helmet on a bike, nobody will know for certain whether a helmet would have helped this poor chap, but, this is where I will take my industry wording for this. Is it "reasonably practicable" for a cyclist to wear a helmet? And the answer is clearly yes as so many of us do. That's the wording the coroner would look at and why the coroner makes suggestions about wearing helmets. It is also why I don't understand why we always make comparisons to motorists and pedestrians wearing helmets. it is NOT "reasonably practical" for them to do so. Cars have other mechanisms to protect occupants in a crash as do pedestrians to an extent (rules of the road etc, but this does need both sides to follow them and that's a different point). Same with stabbing victims wearing stab vests!?! You compare apples and oranges and come up with bananas. If we as a community want to be taken seriously we need to stop doing this and compare apples with apples!

One point to note though, if he had been wearing a helmet and he survived the crash with little more than some cuts and brusies, would we have been discussing this and extolling the merits of helmets? I think not, there would have been nothing to report on.

At last a voice of reason esp the last para. You only hear of the bad accidents and not of the 'good' ones where helmets were worn. People just pick themselves up and carry on.

I cannot see why anti cycle helmet people state that helmets on motorbikes are necessary because motorcycle accidents are more dangerous. Assuming that you don't get hit by your own bike why are they any different at say, 30mph to a cycle accident? You're still likely to come off slightly to the side and scrape your head on the ground.
My physio was stopped at lights on his motorbike when he was T boned by a Volvo coming out of a side street at 20mph. Knocked sideways and scraped across the road, hitting his head on the kerb. He walked away (but with life threatening internal injuries) and credits his helmet with saving his life. That's his professional opinion.
My wife was, until recently, a world class competitive snowboarder. She's witnessed accidents where fellow helmeted snowboarders hit their head and only suffered concussion preventing, in multiple witnesses opinion, much worse damage.
I was in rehab with a doctor who had a head injury from skiing. He had no helmet and hit a tree. After 5 years private top class neuro rehab he could stand and, held by 2 physios, take 3-5 steps. Humbling to watch believe me.
Anecdotal I know but proof for most people.

It's your choice whether to wear one but please don't dismiss their value in many accidents.

My son's Balkan tour

Cycling UK Forum - Touring & Expedition - 18 May 2016 - 12:27pm
I'm way past my touring days alas, and I don't often come to this section.

My son however has taken it up with alacrity and has just completed a 6-week, 1300 mile solo tour of the southern Balkans, taking in Albania, a small part of Greece, Macedonia and Kosovo. He doesn't post on this forum so I offered to put up the link to his blog.

Some of it has been rather hastily put together (he's just set off today on another long trip - sans bike - to the Far East). But hopefully a useful read for some on here.

Re: Long touring without front panniers

Cycling UK Forum - Touring & Expedition - 18 May 2016 - 12:24pm
Bicycler wrote:Rather than buying a new bike you could just replace the suspension fork. Surly have a few suspension corrected forks with front carrier braze-ons. Or you could use any suitable rigid fork and a clamp on or axle-mounted carrier.

Thanks dude! I'll look into it.

Re: New Route Planner

Cycling UK Forum - Touring & Expedition - 18 May 2016 - 12:24pm
Yep that sounds like the problem! Thanks for taking a look at it and for all of the effort in providing the tool!

Since I have your attention When you come to turns etc. you will get a notification to turn left/right etc. Is there any way to get this notification sooner? With my Edge 520 I often don't get the notification until after I have actually turned the corner or whatever. This may be down to my edge lagging a little when following a course, but if there was a way to get the information earlier I'd probably use it.

Thanks again!

Re: New Route Planner

Cycling UK Forum - Touring & Expedition - 18 May 2016 - 12:11pm
Ah - looks like OSM didn't have the road marked as a double carriageway, so cycle.travel thought it could just turn right onto a single carriageway. I've just fixed it and it should be ok as of the next map update.

Re: Cycling from Lourdes to Perpignan

Cycling UK Forum - Touring & Expedition - 18 May 2016 - 12:03pm
I'm currently cycling from Perpignan to Andorra. Then I'm heading into Spain. The highest pass is around 8000ft I believe!

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 11:50am
sapperadam wrote: That's the wording the coroner would look at and why the coroner makes suggestions about wearing helmets.

+1

The coroner will definitely make some ill-informed, completely baseless comments about the need to wear a helmet while cycling. This will be widely reported in the press and so the nonsense gets repeated and the circus carries on. Will the inquest be informed properly about the actual science of what happened in this case? I don't think so.

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 11:29am
it is NOT "reasonably practical" for them to do so

Not so at all.

A helmet for a pedestrian is every bit as practical as for a cyclist. What is impractical about it?

For a motorist, even more so - no issues with overheating.

Think harder. It's nothing to do with practicality.

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 11:16am
and pedestrians wearing helmets. it is NOT "reasonably practical" for them to do so

I dont see how it is any more difficult for a pedestrian to wear a helmet than it is for a cyclist to wear one.
Let alone putting the not in capitals. In fact many cyclists dont bother taking their helmets off when they are walking their bikes.

Also we could declare any thing (crucifixes as an example) to be a safety aid and insist that they be worn on the grounds that it is "reasonably practical" to wear one while cycling.

Re: Gas cannisters in Holland and Belgium

Cycling UK Forum - Touring & Expedition - 18 May 2016 - 11:11am
The adapter you link to is for the resealable camping gaz cartridges. IME you don't actually see these very often - the cartridges I mainly see in campsite shops and supermarkets are the puncture type. I think Edelrid do an adapter for these as well.

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 11:08am
I don't wish to preach too much about helmets here but something occurred to me reading this just now.

I work in an industry which is considered extremely dangerous and in fact I work on a site which includes nuclear installations so safety is, as you can imagine, absolutely paramount.

In terms of wearing a helmet on a bike, nobody will know for certain whether a helmet would have helped this poor chap, but, this is where I will take my industry wording for this. Is it "reasonably practicable" for a cyclist to wear a helmet? And the answer is clearly yes as so many of us do. That's the wording the coroner would look at and why the coroner makes suggestions about wearing helmets. It is also why I don't understand why we always make comparisons to motorists and pedestrians wearing helmets. it is NOT "reasonably practical" for them to do so. Cars have other mechanisms to protect occupants in a crash as do pedestrians to an extent (rules of the road etc, but this does need both sides to follow them and that's a different point). Same with stabbing victims wearing stab vests!?! You compare apples and oranges and come up with bananas. If we as a community want to be taken seriously we need to stop doing this and compare apples with apples!

One point to note though, if he had been wearing a helmet and he survived the crash with little more than some cuts and brusies, would we have been discussing this and extolling the merits of helmets? I think not, there would have been nothing to report on.

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 10:57am
Bez wrote:climo wrote:I would be interesting to know if the percentage of head injuries is rising at the same rate as the amount of people cycling.

That doesn't make sense. Do you mean "if the number of head injuries is rising at the same rate as the number of people cycling"? (Which would make sense and would be a reasonable start, but would still be flawed due to not differentiating where and how people ride.)

yes

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 10:45am
Bez wrote:horizon wrote:Bez: where are you on this? I probably accept what you are saying.

I'm with the first bit—where you say that it's a matter of conjecture.

Not the second bit—where you express the view that a helmet would have been useless, based entirely on conjecture.

Yes, it was just to counter climo's conjecture but otherwise we agree and I stand corrected.

Re: New Route Planner

Cycling UK Forum - Touring & Expedition - 18 May 2016 - 10:35am
Not sure the best way to give you the details but here goes!

So here are the route instructions:
18.8mi66.
Turn right onto B6265 Bradford Road
800m
19.3mi 67.
Turn right onto Royd Ings Avenue
900m
19.9mi 68.
Turn left onto Royd Way
200m
20mi major road69.
Turn right onto A650 Hard Ings Road
70m
20mi major road70.
At roundabout take A629 Hard Ings Road (exit 1)


Basically this route is near to Keighley approaching from Riddlesden. The problem is the right turn on to the A650 from Royd Way. No mention of walking or anything.

Googlemaps for the road here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.87632 ... 043597,17z

The streetview of this turn is here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Rid ... 41!6m1!1e1


Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a big issue, just thought it was something worth taking a look at. It is an odd bit of road, basically the A650 single carriageway splits into a dual carriageway for the roundabout and the side road joins this bit of road.

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 10:23am
A motorcycle helmet offers much greater protection than a cycle helmet does.

So if I was expecting a crash, or looking back in hindsight at a crash that happened, shouldnt I be calling for motorcycle helmets to have been worn at that instant?

Re: Cyclist killed in three-rider collision in Lancashire

Cycling UK Forum - On the road - 18 May 2016 - 10:17am
horizon wrote:Bez: where are you on this? I probably accept what you are saying.

I'm with the first bit—where you say that it's a matter of conjecture.

Not the second bit—where you express the view that a helmet would have been useless, based entirely on conjecture.
Syndicate content
 
  • Patron: Her Majesty The Queen
  • President: Jon Snow
  • Chief Executive: Paul Tuohy
  • Cycling UK is a trading name of Cyclists’ Touring Club (CTC) a company limited by guarantee, registered in England no: 25185. Registered as a charity in England and Wales charity no: 1147607 and in Scotland charity no: SC042541. Registered office: Parklands, Railton Road, Guildford, Surrey GU2 9JX.

Copyright © CTC 2016

Terms and Conditions