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Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

6 April 2016 - 5:10pm
That makes them a terroriser, not a terrorist.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

6 April 2016 - 9:23am
rfryer wrote:.....In itself it's no more terrorism than a mugging;
Mugging is stealing with violence or the potential for violence,which can cause terror in a populous if it's happening on a regular basis in a particular area.
As a one off incident it's not generally seen by the populous as a threat/fear/terror,because it's not the primary objective,where say rape is.

.. while it does cause increased levels of fear in the wider population, there's no evidence of that being a motivation for the act.
But it doesn't have to be the motivation,it's the effect that matters.If a populous in this case cyclists,is frightened/terrorised by the act of stretching barbed wire across a path then it's an act of terrorism against that element.It may have only happened once but that can be enough to terrorise.
There's also the effect of memory if it's done once and never again the effect dwindles with memory,but if it's done on a regular basis the effect is heightened and a chance that cyclists will stop riding on that path,thereby the people setting the trap have terrorised cyclists into doing what was the their objective.


TBH I see your point but it's not the whole potential story,the problem is terrorism is a word that's been reserved to describe people who set bombs or shoot or poison people indiscriminately,but is some who physically abuses their wife or husband or partner not terrorising them?
And therefore a terrorist?

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

6 April 2016 - 9:23am
rfryer wrote:.....In itself it's no more terrorism than a mugging;
Mugging is stealing with violence or the potential for violence,which can cause terror in a populous if it's happening on a regular basis in a particular area.
As a one off incident it's not generally seen by the populous as a threat/fear/terror,because it's not the primary objective,where say rape is.

.. while it does cause increased levels of fear in the wider population, there's no evidence of that being a motivation for the act.
But it doesn't have to be the motivation,it's the effect that matters.If a populous in this case cyclists,is frightened/terrorised by the act of stretching barbed wire across a path then it's an act of terrorism against that element.It may have only happened once but that can be enough to terrorise.
There's also the effect of memory if it's done once and never again the effect dwindles with memory,but if it's done on a regular basis the effect is heightened and a chance that cyclists will stop riding on that path,thereby the people setting the trap have terrorised cyclists into doing what was the their objective.


TBH I see your point but it's not the whole potential story,the problem is terrorism is a word that's been reserved to describe people who set bombs or shoot or poison people indiscriminately,but is some who physically abuses their wife or husband or partner not terrorising them?
And therefore a terrorist?

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

6 April 2016 - 8:21am
In general, I'm more than happy to take a "sensible" view of word usage, rather than being swayed by up-to-the-minute abuses of our language.

However, in this case, it seems to me that a fundamental part of terrorism is the intention to cause fear in a population. It's not clear that an isolated instance of stringing barbed wire across a trail had that intention - its purpose could equally be to try to kill/maim an individual, either in a targeted way or for the twisted gratification of the perpetrator. In itself it's no more terrorism than a mugging; while it does cause increased levels of fear in the wider population, there's no evidence of that being a motivation for the act.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

6 April 2016 - 8:21am
In general, I'm more than happy to take a "sensible" view of word usage, rather than being swayed by up-to-the-minute abuses of our language.

However, in this case, it seems to me that a fundamental part of terrorism is the intention to cause fear in a population. It's not clear that an isolated instance of stringing barbed wire across a trail had that intention - its purpose could equally be to try to kill/maim an individual, either in a targeted way or for the twisted gratification of the perpetrator. In itself it's no more terrorism than a mugging; while it does cause increased levels of fear in the wider population, there's no evidence of that being a motivation for the act.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

5 April 2016 - 10:56pm
Interesting to note that among national and international bodies one researcher into the matter found 109 different definitions for terrorism. Another researcher found over 100. The Terrorism act has a subsection that states terrorism does not have to be political to still be legally terrorism. It can be as simple as performing or threatening acts of violence with the purpose of intimidation. Or words to that effect. Either way some experts also call some things terrorism that to me would just be highly antisocial behaviour. In the case of the barbed wire across a trail that is potentially very serious. It can cause great harm to someone but it also creates a doubt that the trails there are safe. Perhaps that instils terror in some which is why I tend to see the potential to call it terrorism. The only reason I don't commit to it is because it is such an emotive word. You can probably describe the act as something else and it won't seem as serious or as bad as if it is labelled terrorism. Perhaps that is a positive or a negative in using the word. Positive if it makes people realise this incident is serious, negative if it just labels cyclists, as an amorphous whole, as timewasters or as a group just out to cause trouble.

BTW the definition of terrorism is something experts don't agree on, you'll get as many definitions as experts I think.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

5 April 2016 - 10:56pm
Interesting to note that among national and international bodies one researcher into the matter found 109 different definitions for terrorism. Another researcher found over 100. The Terrorism act has a subsection that states terrorism does not have to be political to still be legally terrorism. It can be as simple as performing or threatening acts of violence with the purpose of intimidation. Or words to that effect. Either way some experts also call some things terrorism that to me would just be highly antisocial behaviour. In the case of the barbed wire across a trail that is potentially very serious. It can cause great harm to someone but it also creates a doubt that the trails there are safe. Perhaps that instils terror in some which is why I tend to see the potential to call it terrorism. The only reason I don't commit to it is because it is such an emotive word. You can probably describe the act as something else and it won't seem as serious or as bad as if it is labelled terrorism. Perhaps that is a positive or a negative in using the word. Positive if it makes people realise this incident is serious, negative if it just labels cyclists, as an amorphous whole, as timewasters or as a group just out to cause trouble.

BTW the definition of terrorism is something experts don't agree on, you'll get as many definitions as experts I think.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 1:03pm
Bonefishblues wrote:Lance Dopestrong wrote:As a user group we often have a hard enough time being taken seriously, and making ridiculous claims does nothing to make an ambivalent society pay us any more attention. It's a stupid, dangerous criminal act, nothing more, and that's bad enough without seeking to put it on the same legal footing as the activities of ISIS.
This.

I didn't address that point.
we're on a cycling forum,and TBH I thought I was safe to mention the 'T' word,in the same way if cyclists are being frightened off the road by motorists dangerous driving attitude toward them,it's an act of terrorism.
It seems that unless you seek to murder X hundred people by bomb,gun or poison you not terrorising anyone!

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 1:03pm
Bonefishblues wrote:Lance Dopestrong wrote:As a user group we often have a hard enough time being taken seriously, and making ridiculous claims does nothing to make an ambivalent society pay us any more attention. It's a stupid, dangerous criminal act, nothing more, and that's bad enough without seeking to put it on the same legal footing as the activities of ISIS.
This.

I didn't address that point.
we're on a cycling forum,and TBH I thought I was safe to mention the 'T' word,in the same way if cyclists are being frightened off the road by motorists dangerous driving attitude toward them,it's an act of terrorism.
It seems that unless you seek to murder X hundred people by bomb,gun or poison you not terrorising anyone!

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 12:41pm
Lance Dopestrong wrote:As a user group we often have a hard enough time being taken seriously, and making ridiculous claims does nothing to make an ambivalent society pay us any more attention. It's a stupid, dangerous criminal act, nothing more, and that's bad enough without seeking to put it on the same legal footing as the activities of ISIS.
This.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 12:41pm
Lance Dopestrong wrote:As a user group we often have a hard enough time being taken seriously, and making ridiculous claims does nothing to make an ambivalent society pay us any more attention. It's a stupid, dangerous criminal act, nothing more, and that's bad enough without seeking to put it on the same legal footing as the activities of ISIS.
This.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 12:34pm
Lance Dopestrong wrote:It's no more terrorism than drinking cider in the sewers is suicide.

As a user group we often have a hard enough time being taken seriously, and making ridiculous claims does nothing to make an ambivalent society pay us any more attention. It's a stupid, dangerous criminal act, nothing more, and that's bad enough without seeking to put it on the same legal footing as the activities of ISIS.

Who said anything about ISIS?
It's an act trying to frighten(terrorise?) people,in this case cyclists,and possible horse riders and motorcyclists from using that path/road/track.
That in my book is terrorism.

Terrorism takes many forms from spouses terrorising their partner to mass murder,but whatever it's form or the number of people the perpetrator(s) seek to terrorise,it's still terrorism.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 12:34pm
Lance Dopestrong wrote:It's no more terrorism than drinking cider in the sewers is suicide.

As a user group we often have a hard enough time being taken seriously, and making ridiculous claims does nothing to make an ambivalent society pay us any more attention. It's a stupid, dangerous criminal act, nothing more, and that's bad enough without seeking to put it on the same legal footing as the activities of ISIS.

Who said anything about ISIS?
It's an act trying to frighten(terrorise?) people,in this case cyclists,and possible horse riders and motorcyclists from using that path/road/track.
That in my book is terrorism.

Terrorism takes many forms from spouses terrorising their partner to mass murder,but whatever it's form or the number of people the perpetrator(s) seek to terrorise,it's still terrorism.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 12:10pm
It's no more terrorism than drinking cider in the sewers is suicide.

As a user group we often have a hard enough time being taken seriously, and making ridiculous claims does nothing to make an ambivalent society pay us any more attention. It's a stupid, dangerous criminal act, nothing more, and that's bad enough without seeking to put it on the same legal footing as the activities of ISIS.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 12:10pm
It's no more terrorism than drinking cider in the sewers is suicide.

As a user group we often have a hard enough time being taken seriously, and making ridiculous claims does nothing to make an ambivalent society pay us any more attention. It's a stupid, dangerous criminal act, nothing more, and that's bad enough without seeking to put it on the same legal footing as the activities of ISIS.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 9:59am
Tangled Metal wrote:Anglers did something similar on the river Lune near Lancaster using fishing line across the river with hooks dangling from it at head height. That was on a stretch the local riparian rights owners had agreed access for the John o'Gaunt rowing club and the university rowing club. A lass from the uni club got a badly cut up around or actually on the face. The local sports club (fishing club plus other sports like drinking in the clubhouse) who own the rights knew the culprits and the boss of the coppers increasing was a member of the club apparently. Got all this from a member of the club. Seems the guys who did it were joking about it among other club members in the clubhouse clubhouse bar just before the lass got injured. Senior copper said no further action was being taken.

If the culprits ever get found out I bet nothing will come of it. Landowners and fishing right owners are protected by the police not out groups like cyclists, rowers and canoeists.
...and as a counterpoint to your final para, which is an inference too far IMHO, I also fish and have seen very similar views expressed equally earnestly by anglers in terms of their lack of protection by the police. Everyone's convinced that their rights are insufficiently respected

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 9:59am
Tangled Metal wrote:Anglers did something similar on the river Lune near Lancaster using fishing line across the river with hooks dangling from it at head height. That was on a stretch the local riparian rights owners had agreed access for the John o'Gaunt rowing club and the university rowing club. A lass from the uni club got a badly cut up around or actually on the face. The local sports club (fishing club plus other sports like drinking in the clubhouse) who own the rights knew the culprits and the boss of the coppers increasing was a member of the club apparently. Got all this from a member of the club. Seems the guys who did it were joking about it among other club members in the clubhouse clubhouse bar just before the lass got injured. Senior copper said no further action was being taken.

If the culprits ever get found out I bet nothing will come of it. Landowners and fishing right owners are protected by the police not out groups like cyclists, rowers and canoeists.
...and as a counterpoint to your final para, which is an inference too far IMHO, I also fish and have seen very similar views expressed equally earnestly by anglers in terms of their lack of protection by the police. Everyone's convinced that their rights are insufficiently respected

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 9:46am
I don't know how you can rule it out as terrorism so definitely. There are 109 definitions of terrorism from national and international organizations. Different parts of the UN can't even agree a definition.

Looking into it there are a number of sources of definitions that allow for terrorism too include actions that put the public or sections of the public in a state of fear. Even the 2000 terrorism act has something similar in a subsection. If you're riding a trail, at an enjoyable speed, with the knowledge of past incidents of barbed wire across the trail I'm sure that has some effect on you and I'm sure if you encountered it you'd get hurt. That very incident would create fear among the cyclists that use that trail.

Personally I think it is a very fine line in deciding whether it is terrorism. Personal opinion perhaps. You cannot just rule it out based on your personal definition or a basic, general definition that is more political than honest IMHO. Definitions of terrorism is a highly political thing in modern world. The term is highly emotive and has accordingly been exploited for political or ideological gain by governments. The whole idea it must be political at its core is a political construct that benefits the state.

Ho hum! All I can say is you'll never get me using a trail known to have anonymous actors carrying out planned traps aimed at fellow humans. Despicable acts and to be condemned no matter what term you use.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 9:46am
I don't know how you can rule it out as terrorism so definitely. There are 109 definitions of terrorism from national and international organizations. Different parts of the UN can't even agree a definition.

Looking into it there are a number of sources of definitions that allow for terrorism too include actions that put the public or sections of the public in a state of fear. Even the 2000 terrorism act has something similar in a subsection. If you're riding a trail, at an enjoyable speed, with the knowledge of past incidents of barbed wire across the trail I'm sure that has some effect on you and I'm sure if you encountered it you'd get hurt. That very incident would create fear among the cyclists that use that trail.

Personally I think it is a very fine line in deciding whether it is terrorism. Personal opinion perhaps. You cannot just rule it out based on your personal definition or a basic, general definition that is more political than honest IMHO. Definitions of terrorism is a highly political thing in modern world. The term is highly emotive and has accordingly been exploited for political or ideological gain by governments. The whole idea it must be political at its core is a political construct that benefits the state.

Ho hum! All I can say is you'll never get me using a trail known to have anonymous actors carrying out planned traps aimed at fellow humans. Despicable acts and to be condemned no matter what term you use.

Re: Barbed Wire Trap set on trail in Kent

4 April 2016 - 9:29am
Lance Dopestrong wrote:Simply instilling terror in someone is not terrorism.
Instilling terror,terrorising is terrorism.
If you want to argue over the reasons and academic meaning of the word terrorism,play away.
I won't give you an argument,but I'll still say stringing barbed wire across a trail is an attempt at terrorising others which amounts to terrorism in my book.
YVMV.
 
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